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  • us Nature (again Fortunately, give hope! and medicine alternative 😉
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    Shame on you s k eptics. It spent thousand pounds on effective, safe, side-effect-free homeopathic medicines. Clearly, the NHS is spending money on conventional drugs that create diseases when it should be expanding its safe and effective homeopathic services.

    The NHS is spending huge amounts of money on drugs that are the third leading cause of death in the U. The fact that drugs are both creators of disease and lethal makes a good case for their being the real waste of public money. More importantly, they are the cause of needless deaths and lives needlessly impaired by disease. They do bugger all, and taking money from people for them with the pretence that they work as medicine is a form of fraud.

    Drugs are prescribed for medical conditions. Unlike homeopathic sugar pills, the drugs contain active ingredients, treat conditions and save lives. I work with people whose lives have been saved by drugs and who live pain-free because of drugs. Homeopathy, by contrast, does nothing but faith in homeopathy has cost many lives. Your mendacity is no more than I have come to expect from people who make a living scamming the public. The NHS is being privatized, and the use of homeopathy is strong among the British people.

    Whatever cuts have occurred have not occurred because of lack of efficacy. Patients at those hospitals offering homeopathy are very strong in their views that it has done good things for them and that they are happy with it. They have publicly expressed those views and have asked that those services continue to be available to them. The facts are that homeopathy is used today by more than million people making it the second most used system of medicine in the world while your conventional treatments are the third most used.

    Which is probably why you failed to support it with any evidence. Even if that is a fact, what can we learn from it.

    Only that, after over years, it has managed a global population penetration of an amazing 7. In fact, homeopathy is used by more than million people making it the second most used system of medicine in the world today. Conventional treatments are the third most used system of medicine, and people are turning away from it because is cures almost nothing but is the third leading cause of death in the U. Most likely that number is the same in the U. The British people have a long history of using homeopathy and have welcomed to London the clinics of Dr.

    Batra and the Drs. Then why do you and the rest of the anti-science brigade rally against any attempt to have it removed from any public spending? Regardless of that though, while hospitals in the UK are a very tiny sector they do reflect the wider trend when it comes to public health spending and you have to ask yourself why that is.

    Why that is is actually made very clear in any case where the decision has been made also. The reason for this is that homeopathy works, is safe and inexpensive. Conventional drugs are the third leading cause of death in the U. Most likely the figures in the UK and around the world are similar. S added homeopathy to the national health insurance program. All the ACA says is that insurers cannot discriminate against licensed health care providers, including those who practice alternative medicine, such as naturopaths, massage therapists, chiropractic, and acupuncturists.

    It is sadly true. Why are you posting comments under a pseudonym? You may deny as much as you want, but the fact is that homeopathy is losing its hold slowly but steadily in the public health service. To take on a pseudonym that could easily be mistaken for a totally different real person is deceptive. This achievement culminates a year effort involving mass vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella throughout the Americas.

    If you go back to the s you will find this was not the case. Go back and look at the historical record. During the s an annual average of greater than , cases of measles and nearly deaths due to measles were reported in the United States. The record does not lie. Impact of measles in the United States. No one born before in the US has to ever get an MMR because it is presumed that they have natural immunity from having gotten the disease.

    The death numbers are verifiable, cia, as measles has been a reportable disease since about Actually health care workers born before who do not have either titers or confirmed evidence of disease may need to be vaccinated. Ah, refuted antivax trope Yes, mortality declined as secondary infections became treatable with antibiotics. Morbidity remained the same. Incidence of measles declined only after vaccination became widespread.

    Measles can kill directly, it can also cause encephalitis leading in some cases to blindness. Measles is very contagious, but very rarely dangerous. Give NO fever reducers of any kind. Keep patient warm and comfortable in bed throughout, and well-hydrated. Keep quiet at home for two to three weeks after the day the rash appears, to avoid secondary infections. And then enjoy the lifelong benefits. Five years ago, see first link, there were nine measles deaths in Europe out of 26, cases, a death rate of three in 10, In other words, rarely dangerous, but very beneficial.

    Measles is NOT beneficial. It can be disastrous. At least two of the above links are to wacko anti-vax websites. How about putting together a graphic using the study that Ivan linked to the other day? The one about how parents of autistic children are significantly more likely to have mental illness. Hence, it was hypothesized that measles infection was associated with long-term immunesuppressionanddelayedmortality,andthatthispost-measlesmortality could be prevented by immunisation [2,3,7].

    Thebelief in persistent immune suppression was stimulated by increased mortality after high-titre measles vaccination[8,9]. When the present study was planned, measles was believed to be associated with delayed excess mortality[2,3,10] and the study was initiated to identify the risk factors forsevere disease and its long-term consequences. However,in the interim, reanalyses of other data set have made these assumptions untenable.

    When the analysis adjusted for immunisation status, measles infection was not associated with long-term excess mortality [10—14] nor was there any indication of persistent suppression of T-lymphocyte sub-sets [10,11]. And so, once again we see how the vaccine defenders lie. Renowned vaccine researcher Dr. Peter Aaby carried out a study in Somalia which put the lie to this false assumption. In reality, measles depresses immune function to an unusual degree, but only for two to three weeks after the day the rash appears.

    Measles patients should stay quiet at home recuperating during these weeks to avoid contagion with a possibly dangerous secondary illness. But the belief that measles decreases immune function past that time period is false: This has already been rebutted.

    You are just repeating the same cherry picking that was exposed the last time. Are you experiencing memory loss from all this dangerous chelation quackery? The vaccine suppresses the immune system for up to one year: I got this to come up today for some reason http: So far it is a discussion on the definition of interferon-alpha and -gamma. Perhaps the next page will turn up soon.

    I like how you AVs will not post a live link, even on forums where they are allowed. Using population-level data, we show that measles has a more prolonged effect on host resistance, extending over 2 to 3 years. We find that nonmeasles infectious disease mortality in high-income countries is tightly coupled to measles incidence at this lag, in both the pre- and post-vaccine eras. By preventing measles-associated immune memory loss, vaccination protects polymicrobial herd immunity.

    Highlight J Infect Dis. I did that last night, did it again this morning, not taking me to the article. I did it in several different ways as well. Can I just have a live link? You know what my first hit was when I did that? The down-regulation of alpha interferon has not been found to cause long term immunosuppression as the editors at whale-to suggest.

    See, for example, Immune activation at effector and gene expression levels after measles vaccination in healthy individuals: Cellular immunity to measles vaccination is not fully understood at the effector response and gene expression levels.

    We enrolled 15 healthy individuals years old previously vaccinated with two doses of measles-mumps-rubella-II vaccine to characterize their cellular immunity. We detected a spectrum of lymphoproliferative response median stimulation indices of 3. Further, global gene expression was examined in five subjects from this cohort after vaccination with an additional dose of measles vaccine Attenuax, Merck to identify the genes involved in measles immunity.

    Linear mixed effect models were used to identify genes significantly up or downregulated in vivo between baseline and Days 7 and 14 after measles vaccination. Measles vaccination induced upregulation of a set of 80 genes, which play a role in measles immunity, signal transduction, apoptosis, cell proliferation, and metabolic pathways.

    Among the 34 genes that were downregulated, only interferon-alpha is known to have a direct role in measles immunity. This study suggests that measles vaccination leads to activation of multiple cellular mechanisms that can override the immunosuppressant effects of the measles virus and induce immunity.

    This caused a huge drop in the level of alpha-interferon produced by lymphocytes. Not only that, this harmful reduction in interferon production lasted for an entire year, at which time the experiment was ended. The study showed that the measles vaccine produced a significant long-term immune suppression. Virus induced immune interferon contains both interferon-alpha and -gamma , PMID: Imagine, if you will, a child that has a mild latent infection of some sort.

    Unvaccinated, if it catches measles then not only will the combination of two infections make for a very sick child, but the immuno-suppressive effects of measles will let that latent infection flare up after said child has recovered from measles. Thus if you want to capture the full horror of rampant measles infections, you not only need to look at mortality immediately caused by the measles infection, but mortality several months afterwards, and developmental effects months to years afterwards.

    These are going to be most marked in Third World environments where infections are rife, nutrition is poor and general medical care is poorer than in the West. I encourage everyone to read all the vaccine info on Whale. Good evidence definition according to Johnny: Anything that favors his employers the drug industry. Good evidence — that which is statistically strong. Poor evidence is not. You would be unable to find a single instance of my rejecting something statistically strong.

    You on the other hand do this pretty much every day. Now go have some more chips and coke. Please show one example of my denying statistically strong evidence. Low mortality after mild measles infection compared to uninfected children in rural west Africa.

    A mutated virus that can harm the vaccinated, not the unvaccinated. Get your science right before you start pointing fingers, DigMed. In rare cases measles can be disastrous, but it simply is not disastrous, but beneficial, in children who are well-nourished and previously healthy, who are well-nursed bed rest, vitamin A, no fever reducers, adequate hydration, and three weeks recuperating at home after the day the rash appears.

    The second is to the Dr. Alexander Langmuir article, with charts and statistics, on measles in the US in The third is to official UK government charts on measles incidence and mortality by year from on. The fourth is an interesting article from one of my favorite sites, on how silly it is to fear measles. Those who fear contagion from vaccine sanity should by all means avoid opening it.

    Most measles complications are mild: Diarrhea, ear infections, conjunctivitis, bronchitis, are common, but rarely severe. SSPE is very rare, and can be caused by the vaccine as well as by the disease:. Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis SSPE is a fatal complication of measles infection.

    We present a case of a fully vaccinated 3-year-old boy who was diagnosed with and treated for autoimmune encephalitis before arriving at a diagnosis of SSPE. We discuss the challenges of diagnosing SSPE in developed countries. In no case is measles remotely beneficial. Not all the complications of measles are mild. Pneumonia is the most common cause of hospitalization IIRC. Ear infections can lead to deafness.

    Vision problems can be lifelong. Encephalitis can cause neuro-mental problems that are permanent. And then there are the lifelong complications caused by the MMR. Autism, bowel disease, etc. I need to get the ones on how it prevents cancer, has cured cancer and eczema, and prevented many other diseases.

    Kubota Y, Iso H, et al. Association of measles and mumps with cardio-vascular disease: Atherosclerosis Jun 18; 2: Rosenlund H, Bergstrom A, et al. Allergic disease and atopic sensitization in children in relation to measles vaccination and measles infection Pediatrics Mar; 3: Children who contract measles are significantly less likely to develop allergies than children who are vaccinated against measles.

    Same findings, different study: Shaheen SO, Aaby P, et al. Measles and atopy in Guinea-Bissau. Lancet Jun 29; Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, et al. Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol Madr Jul-Aug; 34 4: Children with a history of measles are significantly less likely to develop allergies than children without a history of measles. Determinants of atopic sensitization in Turkish school children: Pediatr Allergy Immunol Feb; 15 1: Same findings as previous one.

    Kondo N, Fukutomi O, et al. Improvement of food-sensitive atopic dermatitis accompanies by reduced lymphocyte responses to food antigen following natural measles virus infection. Clin Exp Allergy Jan; 23 1: Several children with a food-sensitive allergic skin disease had a clear improvement in their symptoms after they contracted measles.

    Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to diseases in adult life. What would you rather your child have, Cia? Death or encephalitis from measles, or a slightly lower risk of getting a disorder of the sebaceous glands when she is older that is a sebaceous skin cyst btw. This has all been discussed with you many times.

    While we have no regard for her the sad thing is that the people who tell her these lies think she is a sucker. Autism is not caused by MMR. Bowel disease is not caused by MMR. Encephalitis may complicate MMR in around one in a million shots this is x less frequent than encephalitis complicating natural measles, and around 10, times less frequent than encephalitis complicating natural mumps 4.

    Thrombocytopenia may complicate MMR in around one in 22, shots this is around 10 times less frequent than thrombocytopenia complicating the natural diseases 5. Death is so rare from MMR vaccination that there are few documented, validated and published case reports in the medial literature. And then you have the gall to suggest that it is good to get measles because it also reduces the supposed frequency of food-sensitive dermatitis. Cut and Paste Mike. Kindly stop propagating pro-disease philosophies without significant, trustworthy and credible scientific evidence to back it up.

    Do you think that the scientific community is keeping knowledge of it repressed? Do you think we decided to keep liberally using DDT after we found out its widespread adverse effects?

    No, once there is sufficient evidence to support something that is accepted as verifiable by the scientific community, things change. Take off your tin foil hat mate. There have been so many tests done that if there was proof of a link between vaccines and autism, it would have been insurmountably proven worldwide. I had to read your comment again to see if it said what I had thought it said. Louis for a concert, or basically do any of the activities which we call having a life, JUST so as not to risk his getting a mild, beneficial disease like chickenpox or measles?

    The childhood diseases were actively beneficial for the long term health of the children. Febrile diseases must be undergone in order to train the immune system in its functions. Meaning that sick people should remain in bed, well-hydrated and well-nursed, but without morbidity, meaning sickness, there is no strengthening of the immune system, little protection against disease in general or cancer in particular.

    Like riding a bike. Will you fall off while learning? Is there any way to eliminate the pain of falling off? Is it worth it in order to learn to ride a bike? In most cases it is. I remember the agony of anticipating and fearing tests, the tedium and anxiety of taking them.

    Is there a way to eliminate all painful experiences while growing up, or in later life? And shots themselves are a much more agonizing experience than several days sick in bed. I dreaded and feared shots, was in the most agonizing pain waiting for it to be plunged into my arm and horrifying pain for the seconds it was pushed into and left in my arm. My parents would be horrified had they realized the lifelong implications of what they did hoping just to protect me from several diseases.

    There is no evidence that the childhood diseases eliminated or largely controlled with vaccines were ever beneficial to kids. The immune system is designed to respond to antigens. Your analogies are laughable. And yeah, in the second paragraph you get to the crux of the matter. All children are afraid of shots. Have you seen the videos on Youtube? Hundreds of them of little kids begging, pleading, screaming, crying in terror, held down by force as they are impaled.

    The immune system is designed to have pathogens vetted and attenuated before they reach the closed circulatory system. The extreme inflammation can often causes encephalitis, resulting in severe brain injury or death i.

    It can sensitize the immune system to vaccine ingredients, in a vain attempt to identify the enemy and neutralize it, it starts one or more autoimmune diseases, which sometimes end in death. But yeah, do go on with the happy spiel you learned on your first day of nursing school fifty years ago, before the dangers of vaccines or the reasons for them were realized by many people. However, I did work in immunizations for about 40 years.

    While it was always a rare child who welcomed a shot, I never saw what you described, and your hyperbole aimed at new parents is first off a flat out LIE, and secondly not appreciated by the health care providers who are trying to keep these kids healthy!

    I think we learned bed-making that day. What was the last science course you took and when, and at what level, e. I imagine that nurses and doctors do everything to calm and distract babies, the young and even adults. Only an idiot or a sadistic antivaxxer wants someone so frightened they are screaming the place down. We have our tricks. Some moms will breast feed, but often the baby pulls off and starts crying.

    Distraction works well for older kids onto adults. Not to forget hysterical. Your ignorance of the immune system is well known. Your dismissal of morbidity in measles is amazing. Your inability to admit that the vaccine is safer than the disease is incredible. The reader is left to his own devices.

    The CDC used to be a great organization, twenty or thirty years ago. So the reader must interpret what he reads using his judgment and common sense. How would you advise the reader guard against cherry-picking in order to suit his confirmation bias?

    This was published in Fearmongering will have you believe it was hundreds. Why do people say that there have been no measles deaths in the United States in the past 10 years? Whether they are misinformed or intentionally trying to misinform people, they are wrong. But that statistical information comes from death certificates that are sent in from all over the United States to the National Vital Statistics System.

    If I assume that your numbers are right and that we can expect 3 measles deaths per 10, cases, and we cease measles vaccination efforts, allowing it to return, we can expect that it will again become pandemic. Assuming half of all Americans contract it during their lifetime, and rounding the US population to ,,, that means that we would expect to see 90, people die of the measles. Not to mention permanent disability, loss of labor due to illness, cost of hospitalization and treatment.

    The statistic for the US in was 0. The vaccine often seems to give lifetime protection or maybe not. That would remove most people who had been vaccinated from the tally. Vaccine choice is mandatory, so that anyone who feared the disease more than the vaccine would be free to get the vaccine, but would be free to refuse it as well.

    Too bad that few adults now had the good fortune to get natural measles as children, but we can still improve the future for children not yet vaxxed.

    Langmuir provided charts showing that in children between three and ten, the group most commonly affected, mortality was less than one in 10, cases:. Now we know that giving vitamin A, even to healthy patients, greatly reduces the rate of complications, and how important it is not to give any fever reducers.

    We also know how to treat feared complications with homeopathic remedies. The already low fatality rate would be much lower because of these measures. In the mortality rate was less than one in 10, cases in children between three and ten, overall in all age groups it was one in 10, cases. There was an average of deaths a year. At deaths a year, it would take two hundred years to reach 90, deaths from measles, but, as I already explained, if people knew how to care for measles patients, the death toll would be far less than in And then, of course, the MMR not infrequently causes severe disability, starting with autism and bowel disease, sometimes encephalitis or death, as well as dozens of other possible reactions and disabling conditions.

    Everyone must make his own decision on this. You have little credibility to begin with, toting the benefits of contracting measles, but you lose all credibility when you speak of treating feared complications with homeopathic remedies; and of the MMR vaccine causing autism. And I am quite sure that you hope that too, no matter how much you blather on about how beneficial measles is.

    I also hope that my daughter gets natural measles, as I did. Homeopathy works, and, as I said, pulsatilla is the remedy most often used to treat measles, but there are many more which could be very effective depending on the individual symptom picture.

    It is very important that the rash appear at the time it is supposed to, and it will move the self-limiting disease along its normal course in a timely fashion: It has worked miraculously well many times for me. I know it works. There are millions of children who were developing normally until they got the MMR, whereupon they regressed within a short time into autism and developed bowel disease. The vaccine caused their autism. She had two words at 18 months, delayed because of the encephalitic brain damage.

    The DTaP booster at that time erased her only two words, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. Any vaccine can cause encephalitis, although the MMR, hep-b vaccine, flu, and pertussis vaccines do so the most often, and the damage to the language and social center of the brain is what is called autism.

    I refused the MMR for her, as I refused the varicella vaccine. If she had had no vaccines, she would be happy and normal now, with a happy life ahead of her. As it is now, she has no future: There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism, but the financial interests at play in both continuing the vaccine program as is and delaying paying the piper for decades of lies have ruined or taken the lives of millions.

    Can you link us to documented evidence that there are millions of cases of MMR-induced autism, Cia? To desire a person contracts a disease is a terrible thing. What compassionate person does that to somebody, let alone their own daughter?!

    There are genetic factors involved with autism which may be triggered to some degree by environmental factors, but vaccines are not necessary. I know someone with autism who is not vaccinated, and I know a very many people without autism who are vaccinated.

    You say you believe homeopathy works miraculously: My daughter had encephalitic reactions to two vaccines, as I did to my first DPT at three months old, and a tetanus booster at nineteen caused brachial plexus neuropathy. My father was paralyzed for the last three years of his life by a flu shot.

    Meaning that I could NOT be sure that my daughter and I would not have another disabling reaction to another vaccine, and neither of us will ever take another one. There are genetic factors which predispose to vaccine reaction, and obviously all my family members have a lot of them. However, no vaccines, no problem. Read The Peanut Allergy Epidemic, on how the Hib vaccine has caused our new, modern peanut allergy wherever the HIb vaccine has been introduced and not where it has not been.

    Homeopathy works, and it is safe and cheap. Please see The Solution by Whatcott and Birch on how effective homeopathy has been at preventing epidemic disease from occurring in those who take nosodes, as well as how effective it is at treating all diseases.

    I have seen it work many times, and it takes your breath away, it works so well. Yesterday a friend came with a terrible headache from sinusitis.

    I searched my medicine closet for a homeopathic sinusitis remedy which I never found, but I found one for allergies which sounded as though it might work, and it did. She took one every fifteen minutes, as the box said, and at the restaurant said that the pain had stopped.

    I hope all those with open minds and hearts will try it and see for themselves. For someone as closed minded and heartless as you to call for those with open minds and hearts is pretty near the ultimate irony. Cia, while your family may or may not have genetic factors rendering you unable to tolerate vaccines, you must realise and accept that you are in the minority, your case is the exception.

    You are not being sincerely honest or transparent when you promote the anti-vaccine viewpoint without disclosing this fact from the start. All scientific evidence supports the fact that vaccines are beneficial and harmless to the vast majority of people and to society in general.

    Just because vaccines appear to give your family some trouble does not mean that others will have the same reaction, you are doing harm by recommending others to abstain from vaccines. In addition to this, it is completely possible that the reactions you endured are in fact completely unrelated to the administration of the vaccines. Your sources are not credible by the way: All nosodes in Canada must now carry the warning: This product has not been proven to prevent infection.

    Health Canada does not recommend its use in children and advises that your child receive all routine vaccinations. Homeopaths claim that material does remain even after they have washed out the container thirty times. Cia is a demented ghoul who intentionally infected her daugher with disease. Your call of course. But I would like to see her paranoid posts remain. Cia deliberately infected her child with chickenpox.

    Maybe after measles, she will move on to polio and HPV. If you do not have the ability to understand the science behind what you are talking about then you are either a too foolish to know what you are doing or b malevolent. There is no doubt that vaccines cause autism,—— Is it too much to ask for you to provide links to that statement.? It seems disturbing that a medical professional should be unaware of this documented fact.

    A California study found that half of children hospitalized with measles were deficient in vitamin A, while none of the uninfected controls showed any deficiency. This frequency among presumably well-nourished American children supports evaluation of vitamin A status as a part of acute management of measles in the US.

    Measles vaccination depletes the body of vitamin A as well as the natural disease. Vitamin A supplementation has been shown to reduce risk of complications due to pneumonia after an acute measles episode. Without the appropriate comparison group you cannot conclude that hospitalisation is more likely to occur in the Vitamin deficient. And you will note I expect you to show that Vitamin A reduces complications in healthy patients which was your claim , and not in seemingly healthy but vitamin-deficient patients, whom I would not regard as healthy.

    Langmuir provided charts showing that in children between three and ten, the group most commonly affected, mortality was less than one in 10, cases: She has said so before. She also likes to point out that more of them are poor, and immigrants. Either their doctors or their parents, usually their mothers, killed them by a giving them anti-pyretics, b bathing them, c letting them get out of bed in less than three weeks.

    Most people are unaware of the importance of the measures I suggest. If they knew, then most people would act accordingly. Cia wants to treat lethal diseases with homeopathic Pulsatilla and Bryonia! Those children who are frail or malnourished did not make the choice to be that way. Parents of Third World children must be given the same respect and must make their own choice. Healthy, well-nourished children are unlikely to die or be severely affected by measles either here or there.

    The vaccine is dangerous, there as well as here. The disease is actively beneficial in many ways, here as well as there. Ideally we could help the people in every land to achieve a population size which they could feed themselves in order to offer all residents a healthy nutritional status.

    In the meantime, all parents must be completely informed insofar as it is possible and be allowed to make their choice. I just made a donation last week to the United Nations Refugee Fund setting up refugee camps near Mosul. It makes me sick to think of families escaping from Mosul on foot, walking all night, through mine fields, trying to hide from the enemy, then reaching relative safety or not, and that makes me sick too , but there being no food, no tent, available for them.

    Now I can look at the photos and think that I helped provide rescue for them. I donate to Oxfam, Unicef and Save the Children, and always give as my seasonal presents a gift of either vaccinations or malaria bed nets.

    I donate to Lutheran World Relief, which does a lot for refugees, disaster relief and immunizations among other things. It is dangerous and letal, more than half of the population of Mexico died from measles brought by spanish conquistadores. All new diseases are very lethal. Like Ebola, which first affected humans in And many people got subclinical cases of Ebola, which still gave permanent immunity, as well as many people getting it and recovering from it.

    Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs, and Steel has a very interesting chapter on this. Most of our common diseases were originally animal diseases which made the species leap where people lived close to their domestic animals. And so the people from that area had centuries of experience in coping with the diseases, which could still be fatal, but much less so than when they had been new.

    The Amerindians only had five species of domestic animals: And so when the conquistadores arrived in Mexico and Peru, they brought the germs for diseases which had been naturalized in Europe, diseases which the conquistadores for the most part had had and recovered from with permanent immunity. But the Amerindians, with no experience at all ever of measles, had immune systems which were blown away by the virus, and diseases which were already relatively harmless for Europeans killed huge percentages of Indians exposed to them.

    In a few generations, their immune systems had gained experience and non-specific immunity was handed down to children, and the diseases became much less lethal. Measles was still a big killer in the nineteenth century in the US and Europe though nothing like for virgin Indians in the sixteenth century , but became much less lethal both for reasons of viral evolution and better nutrition and living conditions which improved immune resistance.

    Four million a year got it, the entire birth cohort, but there was only an average of deaths a year from measles, or 0. I had measles when I was six: It was very rarely a serious or dangerous diseases, partly because we benefited from non-specific immunity which protected us from birth from the worst possible ravages of the disease, as well as the placental immunity and breast feeding by women who had had natural measles growing up, which made measles very rare in the first year of life, when it can be dangerous for infants.

    Giving vitamin A and NO fever reducers prevent most complications. Natural measles gives permanent immunity, the ability to protect future infants, a stronger, better-trained cellular immune system, and protection from heart disease, strokes, many diseases, and many cancers in later life. It causes a high fever, which is ultimately beneficial for many reasons if left alone for the immune system to use its millions of years of experience to deal with. The measles patient must remain quiet, warm, and well-hydrated in bed until the fever is gone.

    And many other homeopathic remedies are available to treat feared complications. The patient should stay quiet at home for three weeks after the day the rash appears to prevent complications from taking hold in those weeks before the immune system is back to normal measles depresses it temporarily to an unusual degree. And then enjoy the lifelong benefits of natural measles. Useful statistics and information on measles, including a link to official UK statistics on measles incidence and deaths from on.

    In a vaccine free US, which would see 4 million measles cases each year, this would amount to kids dying from measles each year, as well as cases of brain-damaging encephalitis, and , hospitalisations for measles pneumonia. Why would there be twice as many deaths now from measles as there were in , when there were four million cases of measles a year with only deaths? We see that you are comfortable with untold numbers of healthy, normal children reacting to vaccines with encephalitis, seizure disorders, autism, bowel disease, asthma, allergies, SIDS, and more.

    I would tell all parents the facts to the best of my knowledge and let them choose or refuse any or all vaccines. As well as many others on vaccines and the vaccine-preventable diseases, as well as other diseases like strep throat. I would direct people to the books on it I have found most useful and interesting, and then let them try it for themselves if they want to.

    Uh, the population is twice as large as it was in The death rate started to level off in the 50s. There is only so much medicine can do once you get measles. The death rate was higher than expected in the epidemic in the US. In the UK, the medical services are stretched to breaking point. A major epidemic of measles might indeed have a higher than normal mortality plus higher mortality and morbidity figures in other areas.

    Here in the US, a major epidemic Disney was not major would stretch services as well. The hospital in my town recently closed their peds department. Neither of us ever said treatment in a hospital was unsafe, nor did either of us indicate any hospital treatments being done that are unsafe. Some pneumonias the most common cause of hospitalization from measles can be treated with antibiotics, which in many cases are given intravenously. Pulse ox can be monitored. If she admits that medical care can drastically cut the mortality rate then it blows her nonsense of just feed them and overdose with vitA back up where it came from.

    I meant that the antiviral drugs like Tamiflu are unsafe. No health expert in the world agrees with you. If there were bacterial complications, they could be treated with antibiotics, but not the virus itself.

    However, Sambucol, Echinacea, vitamins A, C, and D, and many homeopathic remedies treat viral illnesses. And conventional allopaths are only focused on Sick BAD!

    There is no comparable way to train the immune system in its functions, and it will serve you for life, easily overcoming pathogens of all sorts, as well as incipient cancers, if it has received such training. Women who had natural measles growing up like me and you could protect our babies during their first, most vulnerable year with placental immunity and our antibodies given through breast feeding. Just THINK of all the lives saved, while all those older kids had the good fortune to get all the benefits of measles when they were old enough to handle it well.

    So you must be incredibly stupid. Extremely tiresome, as a matter of fact. None of these vaccines are dangerous. There is virtually no measles antibody in breast milk.

    All the lives saved my derriere! Not only does measles give you immunity to future exposures to it, it also strengthens your immune system so you can avoid other future illnesses, including autoimmune disease and even cancer.

    You see, our bodies were actually created to get these regular, normal workouts throughout childhood. Just like our muscles need use to grow and become strong, so our immune systems need to be used in order to bulk up and prepare to fight off invaders.

    Instead of catching what used to be normal childhood illnesses, most kids are vaccinated against them, providing a false sense of immunity and overloading the immune system. So now, children have weakened immune systems that allow them to catch every common cold and suffer from frequent ear infections.

    Suffering through one week of discomfort with an illness like measles is surely preferable to long-term, frequent and annoying illnesses. Having autism actually destroys the immune system. If you know the real cause of autism, you understand that autism develops due to a compromised immune system, then the underlying causes of autism continue to wreck the immune system. Less than one thousand people per year get measles in the US, and only one death has been confirmed in over a decade and even then, the cause of death was arguably due to something else, as the woman had a number of conditions contributing to poor immune function, and the measles virus was only found during an autopsy, as she had no symptoms.

    The latest estimates show 1 in 45 children in the US have autism. The places where typically mild diseases are more likely to have complications are the places that struggle with poor sanitation and nutrition, like third world countries. The death of a child is always sad, but we need to look at the facts: There is no doubt, autism is more common than measles complications in the US and other developed nations.

    While rare but serious complications of measles can lead to death, a child is more likely to suffer from autism following an MMR vaccination than to catch measles at all, let alone have very serious complications. As we can clearly see, the odds of catching measles, and especially suffering from complications, are much lower than the chance of being diagnosed with autism. Not only that, but once you get over measles, you move on in better health.

    Autism can have lifelong implications for both sufferers and their families. Look at the facts and make the best choices for your kids based on the real risks, not hyped-up figures and half-truths. When infectious diseases of childhood are not mismanaged by the administration of antibiotics, or by suppressing fever, the diseases prime and mature the immune system and also represent developmental milestones. Prior to the s, most children in the United States and Canada caught measles.

    Complications from the disease were unlikely. Previously healthy children usually recovered without incident. Doctors and other health authorities often try to frighten parents about measles by exaggerating the risks. For example, vaccine pamphlets published by the CDC claim that 1 out of every children who contract measles will get encephalitis, an infection of the brain.

    Robert Mendelsohn, renowned pediatrician and vaccine researcher, had this to say: Vitamin A and Nutrition: Several studies show that when patients with measles are given vitamin A supplements, their complication rates and chances of dying are significantly reduced.

    For example, as early as doctors used cod-liver oil — high in vitamin A — to treat measles and lower mortality by 58 percent. However, during the mids new studies demonstrated an increased risk of diarrhea, respiratory disease, and death in children with mild vitamin A deficiency.

    In a study conducted in Tanzania, Africa, children with measles were randomly divided into two groups and received routine treatment alone or with , i.

    Mortality rates in the vitamin A group were cut in half. In fact, children under two years of age who did not receive vitamin A were nearly eight times more likely to die Figure 1.

    In , the New England Journal of Medicine confirmed that vitamin A supplements significantly reduce measles complication and death rates. The greater the deficiency, the worse the complications and higher the probability of dying. Malnutrition is clearly responsible for higher disease complication and death rates. Viera Scheibner, vaccine researcher, summarizes the data more succinctly: Poor nutrition and a vitamin A deficiency are not the only factors known to increase measles complication and mortality rates.

    Standard treatment protocols may be detrimental as well. For example, when doctors administer antipyretics fever reducers, such as aspirin to control the rising temperature in measles patients, greater problems are likely.

    In one study during a measles epidemic in Ghana, Africa, children were divided into two groups. One group received antipyretics — typical at many hospitals. Mortality was five times greater than in the group that did not receive this treatment Figure 2. In another study conducted in Afghanistan, children with measles were divided into two groups. Once again, members of one group received aspirin to lower fever. The study revealed that children receiving the antipyretics had prolonged illness, more diarrhea, ear infections and respiratory ailments, such as pneumonia, bronchitis and laryngitis, and significantly greater mortality rates.

    Robert Mendelsohn agrees that fevers should not be suppressed: It is something to rejoice over, not to fear. Autoimmune disease occurs because the immune system is too active. Strengthening it non specifically would induce autoimmune disease and allergies. Perhaps you should pay attention to her. Autoimmune disease occurs when the Th-2 branch of the immune system has been overstimulated, usually by vaccines. Any antigen in anything injected not just vaccines, but including them can sensitize the immune system to it or substances closely resembling it.

    The immune system becomes very alarmed at the sudden, unnatural invasion of these antigens of its territory, and under natural conditions, its inflammation would be a healthy and helpful response to neutralizing the threat. But vaccines are not natural.

    Vaccines are designed to cause an inflammatory response: Or it can sensitize the immune system to vaccine components, so that the next time s it perceives them, it attacks the substance which resembles the ingredient which sensitized the immune system to it. And this causes all of the many autoimmune disease, which used to be rare, but now have become very common since the vaccine epidemic started in with the introduction of three doses of the Hib vaccine.

    And then many more. An infant is born with the Th-2 system predominating, but the task of the first year is for the baby to develop his Th-1 system to become predominant. The Th-2 system depends on antibodies, which should be the less important way to combat disease. The Th-1 system depends on cell-mediated immunity rather than antibodies, and the microbial challenges the infant faces as he grows educate and strengthen the Th-1 system, which is as it should be.

    Vaccines depend entirely on antibody production, which is not a good thing. And the Th-1 system works by sensitization to foreign substances, which is what causes autoimmune disease, weakening the immune system as a whole. And that is why at this time one in nine vaccinated children has asthma, one in three allergies, one in ten bowel disease, and one in two hundred diabetes.

    Autoimmune disease is not usually caused by vaccines but by microbial infection in those cases with an extrinsic trigger. The autoimmune action is promoted by Th1 type cytokines.

    Th1 cytokines are controlled by Th2 cytokines in a complex feedback control system. Just exists passively, allowing itself to be killed unless it gets help from modern pharma drugs or vaccines? What a dream world you live in. The immune system is one of the most complex systems in biology.

    It helps that when someone wants to coopt it for their own agenda they at least get the basics correct. Autoimmune disease was very rare before vaccines. Allergies, for example, require the abnormal introduction into the bloodstream of an allergen: When you inject an antigen which can be ANYTHING , or when a natural injection like a bee sting introduces a foreign substance into the blood, it often sensitizes the immune system to that substance.

    Occasionally a physical problem can create holes in the digestive system through which undigested food can enter the bloodstream, and that used to very rarely cause a food allergy, but food allergies were almost unknown before vaccines. After vaccines were introduced a little over a hundred years ago, food allergies such as those to milk or eggs sometimes occurred, but became more common as more people got more vaccines. There was no peanut allergy anywhere in the world before flu vaccines with peanut protein began to be used in the late s.

    Peanut allergy became much more common with the introduction of the Hib series in , not only because of the peanut oil adjuvant used in some vaccines, but because the Hib germ resembles peanut protein in its structure, causing cross-reactivity. And at that time the peanut allergy epidemic began, exploding in every country which introduced the vaccine within a few years of its introduction. The incidence of sometimes fatal peanut allergy in the US multiplied by a factor of three in just three years after its introduction in When they realized what was happening and stopped using cottonseed oil adjuvant, cottonseed allergy disappeared.

    Allergy needs exposure, do you know what increased at the same time as the increase in peanut allergy? Type I allergies require an aqueous macromolecule with at least two epitope sites in close proximity exposed to bind to immune cells. The airborne allergies are initiated by the vaccine sensitization in most cases.

    Food allergies involve holes in the gut which leak into the bloodstream. Many unfortunate results can follow, but one of them is that the undigested peptides get a fast track to the brain, where gluten and casein peptides in the case of sensitization to those substances can then produce opioid reactions in the brain and abnormal behaviors.

    The pertussis vaccine is notorious for initiating asthma, and those who have gotten the vaccine are many times more likely to develop asthma than those who have not. And, as I already said, the Hib vaccine, and to a much lesser degree other vaccines, produces peanut allergy. Oh why do I bother, you just fabricate to push your agenda which appears to involve mass deaths and illness to your daughter. Fluids move from high pressure to low pressure.

    Not before the smallpox vaccine, which caused a lot of neurological and autoimmune damage, as well as withered limbs, cancer at the vaccination site, anaphylaxis, syphilis, TB, leprosy, and death. There was no hay fever before the smallpox vaccine, but there was afterwards. It, like all vaccines, primitive and worthless as it was, yet provoked the immune system into its usual disabling reactions in tens of thousands. What worthless propaganda you pour out.

    The polio vaccine I think was beneficial, although it caused cancer in many SV40 and other adverse reactions in many. The DT is probably a good idea for most, though not absolutely necessary for most either. I was a child before the MMR, and just got measles and rubella, like nearly everyone else.

    No one worried about it. No autism, no bowel disease, and very few deaths from measles. Pertussis became much less dangerous than it had been over fifty years ago. My thrice-vaxxed daughter got it at eight months old and gave it to me: The booster at 18 months erased her only words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. High-dose IV vitamin C will treat pertussis, and parents should be taught to shelter young infants at home for the first four or five months, after which pertussis is not dangerous to them.

    Nor do we need any of the others, and without them fewer children would be damaged or immune-compromised by them, and could once again benefit by getting the childhood diseases naturally. Rhazes described hay fever in the 10th century. Just after saying this earlier in the same paragraph: You must know that smallpox vaccine contains an entirely different virus.

    Or do you think it has protean properties and superpowers? I was speaking of the smallpox vaccine in the nineteenth century. A lot of people were turned off by the idea of scratching rotten animal exudate into their flesh, especially since everyone was well aware of the large number killed or disabled by vaccination, and they thought it was more sensible to use the arm to arm method and scratch pus from actual smallpox lesions into their flesh, but unfortunately, that just served to kick off huge epidemics of smallpox.

    Let me look it up real quick. Jenner observed that milkmaids and others who had cowpox seldom got smallpox and made his vaccine from cowpox virus. Iv;e seldom heard such unmitigated BS in my life. Tell me, do you believe say, blood transfusions are a worthwhile and beneficial intervention?

    And that it still often causes severe damage to the recipients? It results in Haemolytic reactions, Non-haemolytic febrile reactions, Allergic reactions to proteins, IgA Transfusion-related acute lung injury, Reactions secondary to bacterial contamination, Circulatory overload, Air embolism, Thrombophlebitis, Hyperkalaemia, Citrate toxicity, Hypothermia, Clotting abnormalities and haemolysis, Graft-vs-host disease, Iron overload, Hypocalcaemia, and Immune sensitisation by Rhesus D antigen.

    Also reported in transfusion recipients are leukaemias, lymphomas, cancers, heart disease, bleeding abnormalities, platelet disorders, diabetes, neonatal abnormalities and autism. Humans should not be transfused — without it they will avoid exposure to disease and death, and those who are not transfused have a far lower incidence of all types of disease, especially blood disorders like haemolytic disease, leukaemia, cancer and lymphoma.

    Most medical interventions have both potential risks and benefits. Some have only risks. There were no smallpox epidemics before the vaccine, just outbreaks of smaller dimensions than epidemics. After the vaccine, there were many large epidemics in which hundreds of thousands of appropriately vaxxed people died of smallpox that would have been the arm to arm vaccination practice of giving people smallpox.

    Anyone would be wasting time discussing anything with you other than Lego bricks and Ladybird books. Oh dear, if Hahn writtes books of angels or demonds this aspect of his life not debunk the review. The bias in Ernst works is evident, the man PharmaGuy -Sense About Science fellow of Monsanto and BigSugar or Coke object the eficacy of homeopathy based in poor re-analysis of the high quality clinical trials of Linde meta-study.

    Odd thing to rally against. No, no, the affiliations of Ernst show the agenda behind of the anti CAM campaign. That agenda would be to have critical and rational thinking prevail and for robust science to be prefered over poor science. Newton believes in God. Hahn believes in God. Hahn debunking the Ernst misinformation. The credibility of Newton is the evidence and analysis. The credibility of Hahn is the analysis and the deconstruction of the Ernst bias. The agenda of SAS show lack of any rational argument.

    The libels of Ernst is very big. Childs as Alan Henness are very funny for me. What is in error in his article? The ethos of the article is hugely biased in its jeering at acupuncture and only presenting a highly negative view of a system of medicine that has served literally millions of people over thousands of years.

    More likely there is something of value in it. My main point in my first comment is that I was disappointed that the Spectator gave someone such as Ernst space for an opinionated, snide article. In this respect credentials are a factor to be considered. Do you want qualifications? I am a Board Certified naturopath. I am a Board Certified nutritionist. I am a Board Certified homeopath.

    These are all completely true. I know jack squat about medicine. Do you think you need an education to become any of those? I had to do absolutely NO studying to become a naturopath.

    It is not a protected term in most parts of the U. Those designations are a way for people with zero education in medicine or an education in BS to parade around and pretend they are real doctors. Since attacking the evidence is not possible, the attack shifts to the person. Mmmm…there are proper certifications and pseudo ones. I think he is biased against CAM and this is EVIDENCED by the fact that he knew or suspected that acupuncture could work independent of the placebo effect in some conditions but conveniently preferred to keep that knowledge out of the article above because it did not suit the ethos of the article.

    Is this comment ad hominem. Yes, I too am biased against CAM. I list my real, but clearly worthless qualifications, as a way to argue from the same level of authority as some other commenters.

    I never hide the fact that my qualifications in medicine are near nil. Are my actions in this regard ad hominem attacks? But when someone who is a naturopath or homeopath climbs on a pedestal to try to argue from authority, I like to make it cleat that that step up to the pedestal is only a millimeter. I always try, but sometimes fail, to keep a civil tongue.

    Insults only make the other person dig in their heels. My background is finance with top skills in situational modeling and database analysis best track record in the industry in a few specific areas. These skills DO cross over both ways. I am a scientist. I care about the science. I care about the data. I care about how the data are interpreted. I care about the controls used. I care about how studies diminish or fail to diminish biases. I care about plausibility.

    I think of all of the things I learned about Finance at University and how wrong they were and wonder why they are still being taught today. Bias and pseudoscience are a bigger problem, in my opinion, in business than in medicine. What I do and believe has changed immensely since leaving school 25 years ago. As I accumulate more data, analyze the data, have peers tear apart my findings, have others point out my biases, and have others check my math, my opinions on subjects change. This actually a good question from you.

    Nobody has ever asked for these details before. My certifications were approved unanimously by the Board. Is the Board real? I even have the minutes. Is this certification real? Is this absolutely stupid and worthless? In many cases, such as this, it means diddly. What I have done is what many organizations do. I, on the other hand, am not hiding anything.

    Actually, you look as clueless as the other bizarre window-lickers on here, and I suggest, borderline deranged. It means nothing in the UK. You make claims but provide nothing for anyone reading to establish if they are true or not. The Boiron certificate is not official.

    Please, your straw man fallacies are very funny. You would dismiss his article because of this? You realise that this is literally ad hominem, right? Yeah… credibility is in the eye of the beholder. Edzard has a very good and well respected track record. Within his field and a number of others he is a credible authority on these topics though. There is a person with a credibility issue.

    From the scientific community point of view though, I guess h-index would be a way to gauge that. Lets give it a go…. Install that if you want to run this check yourself. Hitting Google Scholar with the extension installed search for the following, wait for it do its thing and we get the data. I am not accusing you — I am just stating the fact: I never said that I had formal qualifications in acupuncture or homeopathy.

    I learnt these things as doctors learn most other techniques: I once wrote as a footnote to a critical article on homeopathy: Only a moron could miss that this was tongue in cheek. Moreover, it was correct: I was trained during several months working in a homeopathic hospital.

    It seems that this is the origin of all these false allegations against me. To accuse me of having no qualifications in these areas is, I think, akin to me accusing you of having no degree in particle physics. You are not and were not a registered medical doctor in the UK at the time but were a professor of Complementary Medicine.

    You do not have formal qualifications or certification in homeopathy or any form of complementary medicine — despite these being available in Germany, the country where I assume you did have medical qualifications fact or ad hominem attack?

    You have been accused of bias in a major article by a high ranking orthodox physician and medical scientist fact or ad hominem attack?

    Those who want to read about him should read this blog post [http: Robert Hahn is one of the best examples I have come across that illustrate such incredible cognitive contradictions in one person. Hahn we have on one side a renowned, productive and genuine I am told by my intensivist colleagues scholar in the extremely significant and heavily science-dependent field of intravenous fluid therapy and on the other an ardent spiritualist and proponent of alternative therapies in general and homeopathy in particular.

    Well, nothing wrong with being either-or, but this practically schizophrenic combination of contradictory qualities in one person defies reason. Talking of reason, Dr. Hahn has an interesting take on the relationship of reason and science. Perhaps the best illustration of his confused views is illustrated in a comment-dialog in english following a blog post by Michael Eriksson, a Swedish computer scientist living in Germany.

    There, the two exchange views on this matter: As I said, quite a curious case. Perhaps a variant of the Nobel disease? The question is — should we believe in scientific data or should we believe is them only if you can accept them by reason? The risk is very great that reason provided by an outsider is completely wrong.

    Thank you for clarifying the doctor issue. All this does not detract from my view that you are biased against CAM, know that some of it really works, but choose to aim for fame and fortune by trashing it. Changed your mind since then? In the above article, I wrote: Yes of course I know acupuncture begins with an a and that is why it topped the table. Does the article above resonate with that statement? Good for branding — less so for intellectual and academic honesty.

    This is transparent as polished glass to me and you are not going to get out of it — no matter what your minions continue to bleat here. I did not think this needed a reply: How about you challenge the points in the article rather than dismissing it because of who the author is?

    You are literally demonstrating ad hominem right now. So… Still not addressing the actual content of the article? Your tone already suggests that. Asking you to actually address the article rather than the author is considered an attack? Yeah, I read that already. You keep posting it but all it has is conjecture and whining.

    Nothing to actually create a valid case for what it claims. Wow, John Maddox prize. Could you explain me your the wrong sentences of your friend Robert Grimmes?

    Homeopathy is not a plausible system of treatment, as its dogmas about how drugs, illness, the human body, liquids and solutions operate are contradicted by a wide range of discoveries across biology, psychology, physics and chemistry made in the two centuries since its invention. The meta study of Shang — Is a clinical paper, not physics.

    Wrong 2, Ernst, Edzard December Skeptical Inquirer 36 6. Retrieved 12 October Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies 17 3: Essentially, for this proposed mechanism to work water must be able to maintain bonds in the absence of the original agent and this bond must be long lived. There have been many physical investigations to ascertain how long water can hold the memory of a bond, and these have shown the time to be exceptionally short and difficult to measure, with results no more than fractions of a nano-second 10 -9 s.

    The most convincing experiments were conducted by Cowan et al. Cowan paper is not evidence against to the memory of water. The Cowan paper is correct, but the scale of memory water is not individual water molecules. Grimmes arguments are very reductionists.. Homeopathy claims that higher dilutions lead to higher potency, whereas Montagnier et al.

    This is the opposite of what homeopathy predicts. Homeopathy never claims a linear response. This stupidity is a common misunderstanding of pseudoskeptiks. The classic sentence of higher dilutions lead to higher potency is an abstraction. In the practice, the low potency is very useful with some conditions.

    In the case of Montaigner works he never proves the ultramolecular dilutions i. As an explain Demangeat:. The findings suggested the existence of superstructures that originate stereospecifically around the solute after an initial destructuring of the solvent, developing more upon dilution and persisting beyond 12c.

    We found that absorbance of ac30c verum globules was higher than that of placebo globules and absorbance of cq6x verum globules was lower than that of placebo globules. These findings are not contradictory , since previous experiments with aqueous homeopathic preparations showed wavelike patterns of higher and lower absorbance among different steps of dilution, i.

    Future research in this area […homeopathy…] should be more rigorous and readers of biased research papers should apply appropriately critical assessments. Can anyone see how this is a contradiction? Complementary treatment of varicose veins — a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind trial published in Phlebology:.

    The aim of this study was to test the effectiveness of a combined homeopathic medication in primary varicosity […] In conclusion, our results suggest that this randomized, double-blind, controlled trial demonstrates that a combined homoeopathic medication is effective in treating the symptoms and signs of primary varicose veins. Homeopathic Galphimia glauca for hay fever: In conclusion, three of the four currently available placebo-controlled RCTs of homeopathic GG suggest this therapy is an effective symptomatic treatment for hay fever.

    There are, however, important caveats. The meta-analysis 3 had numerous flaws and inconsistencies that need to be noted. For instance, the analysis included retrospective studies and unpublished trials. One of the authors was also an author on all four primary studies of GG, and another author of the analysis was co-author of one of the studies.

    Please, feel to share the meta analysis of S. My petition start now. I could agree with you if you were to look at the table with an emotional or irrational bias that causes you to glom onto some desperate hope of validation. A thing that may work in about a third of the population that has no reliable way to identify if any given individual is susceptible. A ritual designed to mimic going through a course of treatment that actually does nothing. Why must acupuncture prove its superiority to conventional therapies?

    Surely proving that it is superior to placebo is enough; after all that is the test expected of new drugs. Considering that there have not been systematic reviews or metaanalyses done on the use of acupuncture in treating every one of the thousands of conditions affecting the human animal, a slight exaggeration or wilful misrepresentation of the facts The consistent finding among papers cited by the Cochrane Review re: Contrary to what some of us may try to misrepresent to the public, this does not mean that there is no evidence of efficacy.

    It merely means that we await properly designed, randomised clinical trials before a definitive statement can be made re: On one hand you state quite clearly and correctly, that there are many different varieties of acupuncture and that as a result generalisation is difficult; on the other, you seem happy to generalise.

    A slightly confusing contradiction. I refer you the Cochrane Library, the highest level of evidence when it comes to interventions:. Acupuncture has found to be of benefit via systematic review in dysmenorrhoea http: I think I prefer the intellectual rigour and relative lack of bias of the Cochrane Library, to an obvious exercise in biased sensationalism. Only for establishing that there is a real effect. Leave the medicine to the medics. That would be because you are attacking the man rather than the article.

    You are consistantly being pulled up on that and refusing to actually do so. Stop being a dick. Address the article rather than the author. I notice that edzardernst: Even if it were true that Ernst did not have any qualifications in CAM, that in no way whatsoever invalidates his presentation of the evidence in this article. Wow, men, this mean a one thing: Hey Pharmaguy, remember me? Let my explain bad guy:. The professional training in homeopathy is not a sample of course in six months. The trained in homeopathy is a full requisite.

    If some remedies are extreme homeopathic dilutions and if this remedies is highly implasuble to elicit any biological response. Why extreme homeopathic dilutions can cause direct harms in only four dead people? If this true, this is a pseduo homeopathic remedies. But, in another letter:. A mother tincture of arsenic, for example, is pure arsenic and thus highly poisonous; yet it would technically be a homeopathic remedy.

    You read like a petulant child with something to pout over. Simon Sigh is the same of the Nighgale Collaboration. Allan Henness and Ms. Wow, need more evidence? And the Nightingale Collaboration does good works. This is a cleary evidence of the agenda behind of Alan Henness. Mexican cartels show your public actitivities in videos on streets and web beheading, corruption with the State, extortion.

    Randi is the first piece of behind this legal game. If you want to make accusations against homeopathy, you provide your evidence. Ah… the evidence against homeopathy is well established and accepted within credible medical research.

    Feel free to share your definitive and conclusive evidence against homeopathy. And only a few weeks ago a leading manufacturer of painkillers was on front pages across Europe for the absurd way it was describing and marketing its products.

    I am a liberal and have nothing to do with American libertarianism, Alex Jones, anti-vaccination activists or colloidal silver. Good point about cough mixtures. Yes it is a huge racket and nobody says much of its inane TV ads and publicity. That is not to say that Big Pharma does not good — it does.

    However it has to keep an eye on the money. Am, the head of acupuncture department at the local hospital is over 50, and he is an international authority on acupuncture. Anybody who wants to be certified as an acupuncturist can do so, no age restrictions. So stop the BS about no one over 50 has a qualification…. I think you misread my comment, which begins: The original commenter was demanding, absurdly, that Prof Ernst possess a qualification in evidence-based medicine before talking about it.

    What a spectacularly ignorant and stupid comment. This thoroughly charming and impressive man was awarded a professorship at the University of Beijing — for his quality of research and teaching:. I supplied the answer. Evidence-based medicine EBM is the process of systematically reviewing, appraising and using clinical research findings to aid the delivery of optimum clinical care to patients.

    That even applies to conventional medicine. That is a direct quotation. I pointed out that such qualifications did not exist when he was studying. All this is true. I said nothing about qualifications in CAM.

    It would have been civilised to acknowledge your mistake at this point and apologise. But no, you attacked again. And then you — rather bizarrely — define what evidence-based medicine is, as if that disproves my point. I mean, how much satisfaction is it possible to get out viciously attack and mocking people who claim to have benefited from this and other forms of therapy where you have haunted those pages? You might learn something. Because of your poor reading comprehension skills.

    Anyone reading this thread would understand that. As for the question of why, for me personally I do it to point out the actual position of the supporters of CAM. Much better to go off to a homeopath or an acupuncturist. Conventional medicine routinely cures these conditions.

    One doctor making a catastrophic mistake with diamorphine does not invalidate proven science. Would you prefer doctors not to use diamorphine, the best painkiller in the armamentarium? Your position is completely incoherent.

    You did manifestly misunderstand my point, hence linking to an entirely irrelevant article about an acupuncturist with a degree. Your failure to acknowledge the fact is entirely in keeping with the bitter and unpleasant tone of all your contributions to this discussion. Looks like I struck a nerve — and the post continues to reveal the true childishness of your response…. Seriously pathetic — are you 13 years old?

    At which point, on the sage advice of Mark Twain. I guess I could agree with that point. He already needs a neurologist. His posts are getting more and more unhinged at a surprisingly steady pace. How our perception of reality is constructed by the brain.

    Or at least to better explain what is more likely to be real. Libertarian, your post is the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, in this case within the reverse form. Since you question the authors competence you obviously can not refute the arguments themselves. That in turn puts you yourself in the position of lack of qualification. According to the Kruger Dunnings effect you are not able to judge Prof. Acupuncture sure seems to be popping up quite a bit lately.

    If you want a clear, detailed book about the placebo effect, it is probably the best book on the subject there is. Acupuncture is the most covered CAM modality examined in the book. Anyone who is involved with medical studies, database analysis, critical thinking, or any subject where biases can affect the outcome needs to read this book. The writer tries to gain authority through his many years of experience as a doctor, but he fails to list a single condition for which he has used acupuncture.

    As he said, for most conditions acupuncture may be ineffective, but what about those that it is effective for, like back pain? Back pain is one of leading causes of doctor visits and missed work in the developed world, and acupuncture is effective for it.

    So this whole article is worthless junk when you factor this in… acupuncture is effective for most people who try it, period. Factor what in, appeal to popularity? Get the details about what is really happening. Both real and sham acupuncture are more effective for back pain than conventional therapy and placebo, according to studies.

    Look at the three groupings in the study. Where is the control group that received no treatment? If it works better than conventional therapy, it works better than placebo and no treatment. Where do get that from this study? Can you provide a link to the study? But that was over eight years ago and is just one study: As far as what does the totality of good evidence say, read the latest reviews and post links here if you want to discuss them.

    If you want to continue asking questions without doing any research, I will not be able to comment any further. You make a claim; you provide the evidence. You say you have it — please provide a link to it so we can all look at it. What happen with your gangster wife? I really hope that english is a second language for Egger. If not, they really need to finish Kindy. Is Maria Maclahan a product of my imagination? CEO from Center for Inquiry. Totality of good evidence in favor of acupuncture as being helpful with pain.

    Amongst several other things. And there is an overwhelming weight of anecdotal evidence out there, but discussing it with you is rather pointless, and your spouse will doubtless be along in the next few minute to hurl school-playground abuse. It is the case, as we can see from the sustained stupidity of many posts here, the ones claiming scientific knowledge are hilarious.

    Links are as kryptonite to Superman as far as Henness is concerned. Thanks for the link to the Nightingale Collaboration. This is one more worthwhile cause for my donations. Our complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority about the claims made for acupuncture by the Royal London Hospital for Integrated Medicine was upheld in full. Read the full adjudication here:. Here are the rules.

    How do I bend them without breaking them? Bad science and bad ethics combined for profit? And yes, Steve, it can also happen in the world of real medicine too. They may have changed their rules and are more open now. However, the advertiser would be aware of the conclusions of the expert and would have a chance to counter anything they disagreed with — but they still lost. You guys do great work. Yeah like awesome man! You and Sense About Science do such altruistic work for people less intelligent, less informed and less scientific than yourselves.

    Keep up the philanthropism boys! Keep up the good working in using double standards in examining evidence for CAM. The double standards are usually on the part of the regulators, eg the MHRA for allowing homeopathy products to be sold with no evidence of efficacy provided. Why not send him a few bucks?

    Yeah, you got me. I do however donate occasionally to Sense About Science which is the charitable organisation that funds the Nightingale Collaboration. Thank you very much for posting those links which are informative and hopefully will be read by some of the commentators here.

    Objectively Edzard Ernst has done very well for himself and he can hardly be BLAMED for the scandal of a university appointing him as a professor and a journal such as The Spectator giving him space for an article such as this. This article is essentially anti-acupuncture and anti-CAM propaganda. Another article with the same facts could have focused on how exactly acupuncture DID achieve results over placebo in certain conditions.

    Surely this is of note? You actually seemed to double down on the attacks on Edzard which detracts from your claim too. I am staggered by the fact this article follows on from the one on chiropractic a while ago, both by the same author, and seemingly, attracting the same bizarre creatures.

    They are utterly impervious to reason and rationale, and exhibit the classic forum behaviour of tr0lls. My wife swears by chirproactic, and visits every 6 months for maintenance.

    It was amazingly effective, and astonished my GP. I found later that friends were also both patients, one had tremendous relief from cystitis. My sisters neighbour in Coventry told of a guy who was a UK-known naturopath in the city Shaw? Some more reading, if you missed it:. Link3 — not a great one. The improvements in all primary and secondary outcome measures were significant and lasted long after completion of treatment.

    And Haake et al. The acupuncturist in the study must have been really good. Are you reviewing evidence of a possibly effective modality that warrants more exploration and use to benefit medicine, or are you continuing to tease out your criticisms? What does it say about a treatment when it cannot show superior benefit over a sham version of that therapy?

    It says that TCM theory, and the points that are recommended, have nothing to do with the way acupuncture works. It also says that sham acupuncture, and more specifically stimulation of other points, IS an effective treatment for pain. Well, primarily, it says the entire theoretical basis of acupuncture is false and should be abandoned. Inserting needles has no benefit over poking someone with a stick.

    Why do we not see acupuncturists abandoning their theoretical framework and getting out a stick to prod people with? Yes, this stupid practice that the Chinese have been using for 4, years, and without the need for charlatan pseudo-scientists like Ernst, and his bizarre and ludicrous acolytes. But that is a myth. The Chinese have not been using it for 4, years. Nothing that resembles modern post-Mao acupuncture.

    And in any case, what if it had been around for years? In what way does this validate a pre-scientific belief system? Science has failed us in so many ways, especially relative to healing. Have the courage to think and express an original thought, not just parrot what a scientist will tell you in 5 years was an incorrect theory or flawed research. The Iceman had tattoos. These are not acupuncture points. You say these things, as if you know anything about TCM, where is your degree from?

    Degrees in acupuncture are like degrees in unicorn studies. You will have spent many hours memorising things but in the end you know nothing because unicorns do not exist. Knowledge is justified true belief.

    Acupuncture cannot be justified. It cannot demonstrate its claims to be true. If you have studies acupuncture then you have wasted your life.

    Prominent is being able to argue that healthcare is contentious and how to set up your own clinic. There is no consistent, replicated, positive evidence base for any condition to be treated by acupuncture.

    What there is a swarm of small, poorly conducted and sometimes fraudulent researched whose goal os only to promote acupuncture. China produces the most research. It is almost exclusively positive. This does not happen is science because it suggest you know the answer before you do the research. This suggests industrial scale fraud. The research is not replicated independently and cannot be synthesised into quality systematic reviews.

    I am afraid I have done the research. I understand how to appraise clinical trial data and acupuncture turns out to be total bunkum. We should do a scan of the lower back.

    Guess what they discovered? After all just how many iron age remains have been found. From those just how many have undergone the extensive study that the remains of the iceman has gone through. I would also like to suggest reading the material published by Stephen Birch. Studies of the bones of Iron Age people suggest that at least a quarter suffered from arthritis in their backs from an early age. This was probably due to the hard work needed on Iron Age farms.

    The vast majority of acupuncture points are inventions of the New Age adoption of acupuncture. They were invented in living memory. It would look as if Needham has fallen for the nationalistic promotion of acupuncture as being ancient in origin. Ancient Chinese texts described the blood-letting, piercing and lancing common in may proto-medical cultures. PS Started ready Keown until it became quite clear it was pseudoscientific hogwash. No point is there.

    Money, power, entitlements, prestige, privilege. The truth of the matter is that there is more profit to be made in keeping your population in a state of poor health and disease then there is in in maintaining a state of good health and well being. One of the definitions of course of sorcery is to produce an illusion, to trick. Well this is pretty well what a pharmaceutical does.

    It treats the symptom of a condition and not the problem nor does it address the over all health and well being of someone. The patient is lead to believe by tricking them that their health problem is being addressed and all is well. Empirical usage and or the placebo. In the modern Western based system pills have been used empirically. A good example would be aspirin.

    Used empirically for close to a hundred years until around when we developed the technology to measure and gauge just what aspirin is doing. It could be that we have not developed the technology yet to determine what is going on when an acupuncture needle is inserted into the body.

    Two examples of western research i would like to draw your attention to. Interesting that there is a point on the wrist called Nei Guan. When this points is punctured and the needle stimulated the pre-frontal cortex lights up with increased activity. Western Science tells us the one of the functions of the pre frontal cortex is to make good? One could say that in order to make a good decision for ones self one should be in a good state of mind, a calm state of mind.

    Using the superstitious system as you call it the Chinese where developing what we would call endocrinology by the 2nd century B. Not to bad for superstition. It is unfortunate that within 3 paragraphs you have made a judgement before coming to the conclusion that its all hogwash.

    Too bad for you. Must be difficult living in such a closed mind. It would be interesting to know what you do for a living, profession. A clear understanding in Chinese Health care is that the body is a functioning whole comprised of various systems which are inter-related, co-dependant and born or each other.

    A concept that the Western Medical system has yet to grasp and understand. Acupuncture treatment for pain: Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.

    I know this one. I would guess that it means that after looking at the data for the study it was found to be pointless. How could you have so much difficulty with that Roman? No it does not say these things. There are no acupuncture points.

    It does not matter where you poke, prod, penetrate. It all produces the same level of placebo effect in the reporting of results. It means there are no specific effects for acupuncture — it is just an elaborate piece of theatre designed to manipulate expectations. That it makes no difference where the needles are inserted is extremely strong evidence that the theory of acupuncture is nonsense.

    You clearly do not have the mental tools to be able to tell fact from fiction and propaganda. Meridians are a nonsense. They do not exist — except in the minds of those far from reality. If you think I am wrong, please put forward your best referenced evidence. I do not actually care whether you learn fiction from propoganda as you accuse me of not being able to do I just hope that one day when western medicine cannot help you that you do not stay on your high horse and actually seek the help you need.

    I have merely stated facts. Acupuncture is a pseudoscientific and superstitious health belief. It cannot demonstrate reliably in trials that it can successfully treat any condition.

    You clearly have bought into the myths and propaganda. You will never gain an understanding of what acupuncture is because you have clearly stated your mind is closed. If you are not closed minded, can you explain what reasonable set of evidence would convince you that you are wrong to believe acupuncture is legitimate?

    It is not only sham needles but placing needles in random points is also just as effective. It shows that all the mumbo jumbo of acupuncture about qi and energy is just mumbo jumbo.

    Sticking needles through the skin has an effect, well duh. But does it have a positive therapeutic effect? Your ad populum fallacy is typical of all quacks. It is not how many believe but what evidence do you have. The blinkers are enormously funny, science moves on but quackery stays in its cess pit of irrationality and denial.

    The evidence for efficacy is lacking simply because the trials have yet to be done in many cases to an acceptable standard. So, the same old question: Please gangster of Randi, feel to free share the guidelines of the perfect study and good evidence.

    What is the minimun number of patients included in RCT with high quality? You really fail at understanding everything of the politics. You need more funny manipulation against homeopathy. Trials are happening, and there is much evidence in the favor of acupuncture.

    Acupuncture is still relatively new to our culture. When I examine the studies, they have very poor controls or no controls. Acupuncture has helped regulate my cycles, relieve pms symptoms, stop the awful cramping, and eliminate anemia from heavy bleeding. All of this has been achieved with no medications, just acupuncture. I went into acupuncture with zero expectations and while I do believe placebo has some effect on some physical conditions, I believe there is no placebo effect in my case.

    I have severe gag reflex and I could not get dental x rays done for years. I really needed them and nothing helped. I was so skeptical when my dentist said he could try acupuncture, but I agreed anyway.

    So, today, for the first time in my life I never had ANY gag reflex at all. I had the bite wing x ray done with no problem. Acupuncture — An effective tool in the management of gag reflex https: Did you read the studies?

    These studies would not be allowed in a grammar school science fair. Listen, ScienceMonkey… I had no interest in acupuncture prior to today. I mean, never, in my life. We have tried multiple times with different methods and nothing worked.

    Getting the bitewing x ray done was easy and I had no discomfort at all. And yes I did read the studies. I never asked for it, my dentist just offered to try.

    So yes, it clearly worked. I not exaggerating when I say the methodology would not be acceptable in a grammar school science fair. You sat down and someone told you this would help, you believe it, and it worked. This is almost the very definition of the placebo effect. It is purely a placebo. The reason anecdotal stories support the effectiveness of acupuncture is 1.

    People who pay lots of acupuncture is expensive money for acupuncture treatment use cognitive dissonance to justify the expenditure. When an actual scientific study comes out, after going through all the steps actual scientific studies go through 9 different levels which can take years the grind and indisputable proof is published, then I may take acupuncture a little more serious. Low back pain is a subject of much research that points to the effectiveness of acupuncture.

    Fast and sustained relief, not toxic to the liver or kidneys, non-addictive. The author of this article is clearly biased, perverts statistics one article he references actually makes a great case about the safety of acupuncture , and his writing is a detriment to medicine. What is your degree exactly? Are you medically trained in acupuncture? You can read the volumes of research and decide for yourself. I see the proof in clinic when people can return to a happy lifestyle.

    Those are there people I care about, not cynical people such as the author of this article. I hope you never find yourself in chronic and debilitating pain, addicted to pain medication, and with failing kidneys or liver as a result.

    Do know acupuncture can be a helpful option. A lot of responses among people here are not open minded to exploring the science and research, and appear to be argument for argument-sake. Well, the fact that you are so invested in your field and likely only read studies which validate your field and beliefs confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance pretty much confirms my point. I do not disagree that you help your patients.

    I know the placebo effect is strong, well documented and think it is fascinating. I have read many resources regarding this as well as other alternative therapies. I see that there are a large number of studies which show a slight improvement over other modern modalities, however, there are also a greater number which show no difference.

    Acupuncture would not work on me as I do not believe it would…I had it done by a colleague, years ago, due to a soft tissue injury and it made absolutely no difference. I, unfortunately, do not succumb to the placebo effect, or hypnosis or anything else of that nature…I wish I did but fortunately for me, I do not suffer from chronic pain or am addicted to pain meds.

    Acupuncture is also used by veterinarians to help with issues with animals, such as pain or incontinence. How many times did you get treatment? Though there is often a level of immediate improvement, most cases take a few treatments before getting a strong response, similar to other therapies; you can discount it based on one try.

    Was your colleague a licensed and trained acupuncture professional? Approaching it all from a scientific mind, there is plenty of research and clinical results that warrant further exploration into understanding acupuncture, and no reason to deny it from people, nor stigmatize it and practitioners as the above article is trying to do. Truth can be found when exploring with an open mind. Yes my colleague was an acupuncture professional. I will never believe that spending ridiculous amounts of money to have needles stuck into my body will improve any condition I may develop and you will never believe that acupuncture is bunk.

    Acupuncture, Chiropractic, Homeopathic, Cleanses, Naturopathy and the like are nothing but money grabbing scams, period. Animals can demonstrate behavior that shows pain is decreased…ie, they are unable to get up off of the floor prior, but able after an acupuncture treatment; and a reduction in frequency of incontinent episodes is clearly measurable.

    I doubt animals are biased, or reporting results to make the vet happy, or subject to the placebo effect. Proof that acupuncture is helping.

    How does money enter the equation? I thought we were simply discussing if acupuncture worked or not. Most of us are struggling financially, but are honored to provide a service that helps people, and is in itself intriguing. I do agree with you on one thing. If I may join in, as an RN; western medicine has yet to come up with a safe, effective treatment for chronic pain.

    Opiates do not work, and are absolutely far more dangerous than accupuncture. Spinal surgery can kill or paralyze a person, or can worsen chronic pain. As an RN you will of course be able to point to the metastudies on each alt med that shows they are safer and equally effective or more so to the medically recommended treatment. I know it is inconvenient for you, much easier to make claims than actually do the real work to prove your points, but that is what you have to do to understand what you are reading, let alone doing real research.

    I personally have a degree in Health Science, which means I needed to prove I could read research, analyse it and report on it.. The only people making money by lying to patients ate the acupuncturists.

    You may firmly believe what you tell people but it is still a lie. No, we pay attention to high-quality studies.

    Just a pity that none of them have been presented yet. The article is froth and flake. You should have learnt this in Reception. Secondly, you know those blue bits of text or footnotes or PMID numbers? They are dealing with burdens of proof. Thirdly, who else do you think should have to be the one to provide evidence for your claims that you made yourself?

    What does this have to do with your responsibility to provide support for your claims that you made yourself? So…once more…do you have any actual evidence that anyone here is being paid?

    Why on earth do you think that you providing evidence for your claims that you made yourself is a favour to me, exactly? You made the claim. Being open-minded is the willingness to assess evidence for a claim, not the willingness to accept a claim without any.

    The internet is full of nonsense ‘cures’ for cancer. Don’t be taken in

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